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If we beat WF, we have to crack the top 25

lucustookis

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Jul 7, 2007
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If we beat Wake, that would put us at 22-8 and 11-7 in the ACC as we finish up the regular season as a 5 or 6 seed in the ACC tournament in the toughest conference in the country. I would be shocked and somewhat pissed off a bit, if.....and a big if, we beat Wake and are somehow not ranked come next Monday. Is it a big deal? Well, it is to me.

With the Miami win, we can lose to Wake by 20 and lose the first game of the ACC tournament by 20 and we are still a lock for the big dance. We likely were prior to the Miami game, but at this point, we are playing for a higher seed in the NCAA tournament.
 
I would not count on us being ranked if we beat Wake. We are currently 36th in the AP with only 2 voting points and did not even get any votes in the Coaches poll this week. That is probably too much ground to make up.

We are playing for tourney seeding now, and a ranking will have no impact on that.
 
Good win last night.....you have a chance with a win over Wake and a decent showing in the ACC Tournament to get a better seed in the Big Dance.
 
I am just happy that the consensus is we are playing for a better seed. That we are a lock for the dance.
 
Still, far too many empty possessions, but what a defensive/rebounding scheme last night; best of the season. Also, they are a great group of competitors who play fearlessly.
 
I think we have more wins than UVA and same conference record. Those clowns are ranked 23rd or something.
 
Those "clowns" have beaten Louisville twice, UNC, and ND, and have an overall SOS of 3, with an OOC SOS of 44, compared to our overall SOS of 62, with an OOC SOS of 287.
 
They still have 9 losses, and at some point, your overall record still has to matter some. Your overall record STILL has to play a part in the equation. I know, their 9 losses are solid teams, but still......9 losses is exactly that......it's 9 losses.
 
They still have 9 losses, and at some point, your overall record still has to matter some. Your overall record STILL has to play a part in the equation. I know, their 9 losses are solid teams, but still......9 losses is exactly that......it's 9 losses.
See VT4700's post above....he gets it. VT having a good year but at some point Buzz has to step up OC schedule if VT wants to have a better seed in NCAA tournament and stop talking about are we in yet.
 
See VT4700's post above....he gets it. VT having a good year but at some point Buzz has to step up OC schedule if VT wants to have a better seed in NCAA tournament and stop talking about are we in yet.
Did the Hokies and UVA split this year? Not to take anything away from the Hoos, but if, say, Duke, Louisville, or, especially Michigan State does this, are they ranked? Of course they are. I bet Michigan State gets in this year. Part of it is a beauty contest. Sometimes the coach doesn't have a lot of say in the schedule, sometimes the other team doesn't want to play the game because of different reasons. Any team that comes in the middle of the pack in the ACC this year should be ranked. Especially if they are playing hot at the end of the season.
 
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Did the Hokies and UVA split this year? Not to take anything away from the Hoos, but if, say, Duke, Louisville, or, especially Michigan State does this, are they ranked? Of course they are. I bet Michigan State gets in this year. Part of it is a beauty contest. Sometimes the coach doesn't have a lot of say in the schedule, sometimes the other team doesn't want to play the game because of different reasons. Any team that comes in the middle of the pack in the ACC this year should be ranked. Especially if they are playing hot at the end of the season.

Duke, Louisville, and MSU would never have an OOC SOS of 287, so you cannot compare us to them and ask if they would be ranked if they were VT. Also, you can't just say a mid level ACC team should be ranked without breaking down all of their games. For example, in addition to our OOC SOS of 287, we also only played the top 5 ACC teams once each. UVA, by comparison, has an OOC SOS of 44, and played top tier ACC teams UNC and Louisville twice each.

UVA is better than VT at pretty much every key category (SOS, top 10 wins, top 50 wins, road wins, worst loss), and they are barely hanging onto their ranking, so there is no reason to think VT should be ranked.

The bottom line is it does not matter, and we should all be thrilled with a soon to be tourney bid instead of worrying about a ranking we don't have.
 
See VT4700's post above....he gets it. VT having a good year but at some point Buzz has to step up OC schedule if VT wants to have a better seed in NCAA tournament and stop talking about are we in yet.

I did see his post above, which is.........I still have to point out the obvious and what still hits us in the face. 9 losses......is exactly that.....it's 9 losses, and again, your OVERALL RECORD is still part of the common sense equation. No question, road wins, top 50, OOS, etc. They are huge and play a part to include the RPI, etc. But again, we sometimes get caught up with the variables listed above (which are important) and totally forget about the overall record. Again, 9 losses.....is 9 losses, period. And, VT has one less of those L's than UVA, regardless of SOS. VT also has more W's, regardless of SOS. What I'm saying is....both are important, and VT is finally learning how to WIN close games. This was unheard of with SG and it's a huge part of why he's no longer the coach at VT. I know, the culture thing and fitting in and all of that, but the fact is, he struggled in close games. Buzz is changing the culture here and part of that is being comfortable winning, and winning in close games. With that written, UVA has quite a bit of close losses to include the one at Villanova in which they gave away in my opinion.
 
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I did see his post above, which is.........I still have to point out the obvious and what still hits us in the face. 9 losses......is exactly that.....it's 9 losses, and again, your OVERALL RECORD is still part of the common sense equation. No question, road wins, top 50, OOS, etc. They are huge and play a part to include the RPI, etc. But again, we sometimes get caught up with the variables listed above (which are important) and totally forget about the overall record. Again, 9 losses.....is 9 losses, period. And, VT has one less of those L's than UVA, regardless of SOS. VT also has more W's, regardless of SOS. What I'm saying is....both are important, and VT is finally learning how to WIN close games. This was unheard of with SG and it's a huge part of why he's no longer the coach at VT. I know, the culture thing and fitting in and all of that, but the fact is, he struggled in close games. Buzz is changing the culture here and part of that is being comfortable winning, and winning in close games. With that written, UVA has quite a bit of close losses to include the one at Villanova in which they gave away in my opinion.
The point is you can't compare overall records without comparing who those wins and loses were against. That's why you see UVA being discussed as a 4-5 seed and VT being a 8-9 seed. That OC schedule and lack of wins against a UNC, Louisville, Norte Dame or FSU is the difference in UVA and VT. Buzz can change that and I suspect he will, but I can't see why anyone would think VT would be ranked. Make it to the sweet sixteen and you will be ranked.
 
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Have to agree with Hoos on this one. By your comparison lucus you would be saying that a non-power 5 conference football team with 11 wins would be better than Alabama with 10 wins. You have to consider the competition and who the wins and losses are against. Virginia definitely has a better resume than us. Period. Virginia deserves a higher seed.

This is a great year for us. The fact that we are a lock for the tourney is a huge accomplishment for Buzz and company. This is a building step and as they say - - - "Rome was not built overnight".
 
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Part of it is a beauty contest.

Miami.

If Miami is anywhere close to the top 25, so should VT be. Their is no discernible daylight between their resume and VT resume.

VT in the top 25 polls is definitely impacted by the beauty contest factor, and not in a favorable way. UVA is impacted favorably. VT could play the top schedule in the country and would never hold on to a top 25 ranking through 4 straight losses like UVA did. That's just the way it is, and why I don't care about top 25 polls.

It's the same way with the selection committee. UVA could play our exact schedule and have exactly the same wins and losses and every bracket would have them as a lock by now. We still have ESPN brackets saying we "should be in" but not a "lock". VT basketball has a different set of standards for the ranking and selection authorities.
 
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Miami.

If Miami is anywhere close to the top 25, so should VT be. Their is no discernible daylight between their resume and VT resume.

VT in the top 25 polls is definitely impacted by the beauty contest factor, and not in a favorable way. UVA is impacted favorably. VT could play the top schedule in the country and would never hold on to a top 25 ranking through 4 straight losses like UVA did. That's just the way it is, and why I don't care about top 25 polls.

It's the same way with the selection committee. UVA could play our exact schedule and have exactly the same wins and losses and every bracket would have them as a lock by now. We still have ESPN brackets saying we "should be in" but not a "lock". VT basketball has a different set of standards for the ranking and selection authorities.
Most likely a lot of truth to your statement. That will change though. We do not have a history of making the dance so we are scrutinized a bit more than some others. Once we start making repeat visits to the tourney I think that will change. I feel that as long as we hang onto Buzz then he will get us to the tourney on a regular basis. Our basketball future is bright and with Buzz I see no reason why we can't compete in the upper third of the ACC.
 
Most likely a lot of truth to your statement. That will change though. We do not have a history of making the dance so we are scrutinized a bit more than some others. Once we start making repeat visits to the tourney I think that will change. I feel that as long as we hang onto Buzz then he will get us to the tourney on a regular basis. Our basketball future is bright and with Buzz I see no reason why we can't compete in the upper third of the ACC.
Agree. It's a statement about where we are at a point in time, and where UVA is. Only making it to the NCAA tournament once a decade has had a lot to do with shaping outside opinion of VT basketball and it takes time and some sustained success to change that. It's a case of perception being our reality.
 
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First, beat WF. Then you can talk about being ranked. VT will not get the respect of UVA, Michigan or even Miami until they do well in the NCAA for multiple seasons. The same is true of FSU, GT, Clemson or any other ACC team except Duke, UNC, Louisville, ND, UVA and Syracuse. Just enjoy the games and forget about the polls (it is a rigged system).

Also, "Bracketology" is the stupidest ESPN speaking point ever invented. Anyone (and I mean anyone) with a little basketball knowledge could rank the teams. It means nothing. Most of the teams that will make the tournament are known. So you are only talking about a handful of teams that are on the "bubble" and can change each week. Just watch and enjoy the games. I actually really enjoy the smaller conference tournaments where you have to win to get in. That is real college basketball. Go Hokies!, beat the Demon Deacons.
 
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The point is you can't compare overall records without comparing who those wins and loses were against. That's why you see UVA being discussed as a 4-5 seed and VT being a 8-9 seed. That OC schedule and lack of wins against a UNC, Louisville, Norte Dame or FSU is the difference in UVA and VT. Buzz can change that and I suspect he will, but I can't see why anyone would think VT would be ranked. Make it to the sweet sixteen and you will be ranked.

I don't disagree on that. When you discuss record, clearly SOS and all of this matters. All I am saying is, the overall record STILL by itself alone DOES matter. SOS is a variable as is RPI as is home wins, road wins, any bad losses, top 50 and too 100 wins, etc. All of these are looked at, but added to this category is your overall record. We sometimes forget about that by getting lost with all the other variables. Is VT a better team than UVA this year? I don't think so. Have I said or put that on this board? Nope, I haven't.

One example here, take a team that is 15 and 13 with an RPI of 49 and a SOS of 10 and several other top 50 road wins and top 50 wins. Bottom line, they very likely aren't getting in and u know why they likely aren't getting in? They don't have enough Ws in that column, and they have to many Ls in the other column. Your overall record can be one of the variables that gets you in or out when all of the other variables may look pretty good.

To your point about not being able to discuss your overall record without discussing SOS and who you played, RPI, top 50 wins and all of these factors, this is true. My point is.....the INVERSE is also true. Last point, do not be surprised if VT gets a 25 spot on Monday if we beat Wake. College Hoops is different than college football in that it's not so much a "wait until the team ahead if you loses, then you move up." College Hoops polling has historically had wide jumps or drops by teams week to week. It would not be out if the real. Of unlikeliness for a 36th ranked VT team to jumo to 25th.

Last thing, in the last 4 weeks of this season, VT has dramatically closed the gap on UVA regarding who is the better team down the stretch. It's still UVA in my opinion as they are better than VT, but not nearly by the margin it was 2 months into the season. VT has improved far more since game one than UVA has. Still, not a better team in my opinion, but it is much closer right now.
 
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First, beat WF. Then you can talk about being ranked. VT will not get the respect of UVA, Michigan or even Miami until they do well in the NCAA for multiple seasons. The same is true of FSU, GT, Clemson or any other ACC team except Duke, UNC, Louisville, ND, UVA and Syracuse. Just enjoy the games and forget about the polls (it is a rigged system).

Also, "Bracketology" is the stupidest ESPN speaking point ever invented. Anyone (and I mean anyone) with a little basketball knowledge could rank the teams. It means nothing. Most of the teams that will make the tournament are known. So you are only talking about a handful of teams that are on the "bubble" and can change each week. Just watch and enjoy the games. I actually really enjoy the smaller conference tournaments where you have to win to get in. That is real college basketball. Go Hokies!, beat the Demon Deacons.
Obviously I agree with a lot of your post, but like the rankings, bracketology, like it or not, has become another measure of respect and nobody really knows how much of that respect influences the actual picks. So we really don't know what it means or if it's important. I personally think your play is what's important, but I also thought that during a couple of years that SG's teams were snubbed. So with no discernible difference in Miami's resume and ours, they are a "lock" and we are a "should be in", and those little things still get my attention.
 
Obviously I agree with a lot of your post, but like the rankings, bracketology, like it or not, has become another measure of respect and nobody really knows how much of that respect influences the actual picks. So we really don't know what it means or if it's important. I personally think your play is what's important, but I also thought that during a couple of years that SG's teams were snubbed. So with no discernible difference in Miami's resume and ours, they are a "lock" and we are a "should be in", and those little things still get my attention.
We are missing a significant strength that hurts us down the stretch - big player on the inside. If we had that then I think we would have been much better this year and potentially looking at a whole different scenario. Our board play is nearly non-existent and we rarely have offensive boards. We shoot and run back to defense. If it falls great - if not we rarely are able to recover for another shot. Kind of like football and not having any receivers - makes us one dimensional. Buzz has done a fantastic job of scheming around this by quick passes and moving the ball around to find the open outside jumper. But . . .we sorely need inside play which we really do not have.
 
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We are missing a significant strength that hurts us down the stretch - big player on the inside. If we had that then I think we would have been much better this year and potentially looking at a whole different scenario. Our board play is nearly non-existent and we rarely have offensive boards. We shoot and run back to defense. If it falls great - if not we rarely are able to recover for another shot. Kind of like football and not having any receivers - makes us one dimensional. Buzz has done a fantastic job of scheming around this by quick passes and moving the ball around to find the open outside jumper. But . . .we sorely need inside play which we really do not have.
Yep. We are so weak on rebounding that we concede our offensive glass and just get back. It pretty much removes any margin for error in the rest of our game. This is what makes the offense Buzz has installed so impressive. It would have made a big difference not to lose Blackshear.
 
I agree also that it's a tough job selecting teams. So many variables to include SOS out of conference, SOS overall, top 50 wins, top 100 wins, bad losses, good losses, road wins, conference record, overall record, RPI, etc. Lots of stuff going on to pick from. I think that subconsciously, a team's historic performance has a bit to do with it. A border line Syracuse or Michigan State is likely getting in if nearly all things are equal compared to a VT or Miami based on past performances and much success in the NCAA tournament. It's not supposed to be a factor, but I feel confident it weighs on the emotions of the committee. I feel confident it is weighing or a factor as to why we are nowhere near ranked right now.
 
I agree also that it's a tough job selecting teams. So many variables to include SOS out of conference, SOS overall, top 50 wins, top 100 wins, bad losses, good losses, road wins, conference record, overall record, RPI, etc. Lots of stuff going on to pick from. I think that subconsciously, a team's historic performance has a bit to do with it. A border line Syracuse or Michigan State is likely getting in if nearly all things are equal compared to a VT or Miami based on past performances and much success in the NCAA tournament. It's not supposed to be a factor, but I feel confident it weighs on the emotions of the committee. I feel confident it is weighing or a factor as to why we are nowhere near ranked right now.
I believe you are correct on that historical performance can be a tie breaker on who gets in. It shouldn't be but that's just the way people think.
 
Miami.

If Miami is anywhere close to the top 25, so should VT be. Their is no discernible daylight between their resume and VT resume.

VT in the top 25 polls is definitely impacted by the beauty contest factor, and not in a favorable way. UVA is impacted favorably. VT could play the top schedule in the country and would never hold on to a top 25 ranking through 4 straight losses like UVA did. That's just the way it is, and why I don't care about top 25 polls.

It's the same way with the selection committee. UVA could play our exact schedule and have exactly the same wins and losses and every bracket would have them as a lock by now. We still have ESPN brackets saying we "should be in" but not a "lock". VT basketball has a different set of standards for the ranking and selection authorities.
I think UVA is looked on favorably because they have earned it...109 wins over the last 4 years so far. If Buzz continues to improve VT they will also earn this but it will take more than one NCAA appearance. They are certainly headed in the right direction. And I don't care what any one says, VT is a lock in my opinion.
 
Agree. It's a statement about where we are at a point in time, and where UVA is. Only making it to the NCAA tournament once a decade has had a lot to do with shaping outside opinion of VT basketball and it takes time and some sustained success to change that. It's a case of perception being our reality.
Well said.....
 
I don't disagree on that. When you discuss record, clearly SOS and all of this matters. All I am saying is, the overall record STILL by itself alone DOES matter. SOS is a variable as is RPI as is home wins, road wins, any bad losses, top 50 and too 100 wins, etc. All of these are looked at, but added to this category is your overall record. We sometimes forget about that by getting lost with all the other variables. Is VT a better team than UVA this year? I don't think so. Have I said or put that on this board? Nope, I haven't.

One example here, take a team that is 15 and 13 with an RPI of 49 and a SOS of 10 and several other top 50 road wins and top 50 wins. Bottom line, they very likely aren't getting in and u know why they likely aren't getting in? They don't have enough Ws in that column, and they have to many Ls in the other column. Your overall record can be one of the variables that gets you in or out when all of the other variables may look pretty good.

To your point about not being able to discuss your overall record without discussing SOS and who you played, RPI, top 50 wins and all of these factors, this is true. My point is.....the INVERSE is also true. Last point, do not be surprised if VT gets a 25 spot on Monday if we beat Wake. College Hoops is different than college football in that it's not so much a "wait until the team ahead if you loses, then you move up." College Hoops polling has historically had wide jumps or drops by teams week to week. It would not be out if the real. Of unlikeliness for a 36th ranked VT team to jumo to 25th.

Last thing, in the last 4 weeks of this season, VT has dramatically closed the gap on UVA regarding who is the better team down the stretch. It's still UVA in my opinion as they are better than VT, but not nearly by the margin it was 2 months into the season. VT has improved far more since game one than UVA has. Still, not a better team in my opinion, but it is much closer right now.
No doubt that VT has improved more over the season than UVA. But I do think it makes a positive statement that Bennett has had a solid rebuilding year and the future is bright at UVA. We lose 1 player this year that contributes.....we lost 3 last year that were starters and lost Nichols who could have made a big difference this year. We have a 7 footer red shirting and another that is supposed to be a scorer, time will tell. I have no idea what VT loses or what they have coming, how will they be next year?
 
I think UVA is looked on favorably because they have earned it...109 wins over the last 4 years so far. If Buzz continues to improve VT they will also earn this but it will take more than one NCAA appearance. They are certainly headed in the right direction. And I don't care what any one says, VT is a lock in my opinion.
I would go one further. The 109 wins probably has more to do with UVA being able to lose 4 in a row without falling out of the rankings. The greater consistency of NCAA appearances just gives UVA the better perception of the program in general with the ranking and selection authorities. We have a lot of groundwork still to lay in that regard. We just started that in Buzz's second season.
 
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No doubt that VT has improved more over the season than UVA. But I do think it makes a positive statement that Bennett has had a solid rebuilding year and the future is bright at UVA. We lose 1 player this year that contributes.....we lost 3 last year that were starters and lost Nichols who could have made a big difference this year. We have a 7 footer red shirting and another that is supposed to be a scorer, time will tell. I have no idea what VT loses or what they have coming, how will they be next year?
I expect both program's to keep right on churning out wins. Neither program is a McD 5 star repository like Duke or Cheat, but both have 5 star coaches with their own successful systems and their types of players in the pipeline to sustain their successes. To me that's really the key, and why programs with coaches like ours don't suddenly fall off the cliff with normal attrition.
 
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Obviously I agree with a lot of your post, but like the rankings, bracketology, like it or not, has become another measure of respect and nobody really knows how much of that respect influences the actual picks. So we really don't know what it means or if it's important. I personally think your play is what's important, but I also thought that during a couple of years that SG's teams were snubbed. So with no discernible difference in Miami's resume and ours, they are a "lock" and we are a "should be in", and those little things still get my attention.

Where are you getting info from that shows separation in Miami and VT? Who is saying Miami is a lock while we are only a "should be in" team?

ESPN Bracketology has us both as an 8 seed and CBS has us both as a 7 seed. This is no surprise since, like you said, the resumes are similar.
 
I would go one further. The 109 wins probably has more to do with UVA being able to lose 4 in a row without falling out of the rankings. The greater consistency of NCAA appearances just gives UVA the better perception of the program in general with the ranking and selection authorities. We have a lot of groundwork still to lay in that regard. We just started that in Buzz's second season.

I agree with you that past seasons might influence rankings some, but when you break down UVA's whole season immediately following their 4 game losing streak, and compare them to the teams a few spots behind them in the rankings at the time, it looks like their ranking was still deserved.

Their 4 losses during the skid were all to likely tourney teams, and in a few of the games before the losing streak, they won @ ND by 17, beat VT by 23, beat Louisville by 16, and lost on the road @ Nova at the buzzer. Not a lot of teams below them at that time could have matched that.

And, don't forget, Buzz and VT were ranked early in the season despite a poorly ranked OOC SOS, so that, combined with where the bracket guys have us projected, shows we are getting plenty of respect.
 
Wake. Yawn. After nearly 30 games, they finally got a signature win. They are now 2-9 against the top 50 and will be a one and done if they are lucky enough to get in the dance.
 
Wake looked pretty good today. I'm VT all the way and understand we're undersized, but the Collins kid for Wake is terrific! (I'd still rather have LeDay's heart/presence if choosing between the two)
 
So the ACC tourney starts today up in NY. That sounds odd but I see the benefit of the greater media exposure. The ACC tournament isn't as relevant now as it once was but it seems that one team will get the hot hand and go much further than the "experts" predicted to make things interesting. No reason that it couldn't be Tech this year.
 
So the ACC tourney starts today up in NY. That sounds odd but I see the benefit of the greater media exposure. The ACC tournament isn't as relevant now as it once was but it seems that one team will get the hot hand and go much further than the "experts" predicted to make things interesting. No reason that it couldn't be Tech this year.
Especially with Duke, UNC, Louisville, and Syracuse all in the same bracket, although I don't agree that the ACC tournament isn't as relevant as it once was. I think it's even more relevant now with the programs that have been added.
 
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