Van Zegren gone will Buzz get 2015 replacement?
- Thread starter Hokie81
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JVZ's scholarship is already consumed by Chris Clarke's commitment. However, there is a high degree of speculation that one or two bigs may be brought in during the off-season, meaning one or two more players on the current roster would not have scholarships for next season.
This post was edited on 2/12 11:49 AM by mrjolly01
This post was edited on 2/12 11:49 AM by mrjolly01
If they red-shirted and had their 4 years to get a degree and haven't broken the starting line-up then get a real job.
Wow. You're comparing Alabama football....a program that attracts the top talent in the country and has won multiple national championship to VT basketball....a basement dweller in the ACC? Interesting comparison.
Haven't heard of anyone being booted who didn't bring it on himself. Its mostly players see their minutes dropping so they transfer to another school where they will play instead of ride the pine. With as many guards as we have in the system you know somebody is going to transfer. As of today my money is on Wilson to be the first out the door with Allen and Robinson both coming in playing Wilson's position. His minutes next year will drop like a rock if he stays, and he has a redshirt year still to use.
^20+ rpg different with two players with the rebounding prowess of Harrell and DFS. You can immediately eradicate losses to Appy State, Radford, PSU. Plus we likely beat UVA in Blacksburg and win a few more of the one possession losses we've had. Enough difference to most likely still in the NCAA hunt. That's what getting some rebounders is going to mean to this team. Chris Clarke is that kind of player who will make a big dent in our rebounding deficiencies.
Finney-Smith gets a quite a bit of good press here for his play at UF. Wish he would have stayed but like you say he was gone.
First time in my recollection that a BB team of ours losing so much and yet offereing so much hope. Very proud of them and Buzz.
We just lost by 21 to Clemson. They were ahead of us by 34, 64-30, with 12 minutes left. This same Clemson team is young just like we are. Like us, a lot of the teams we have lost to are young, have good recruits coming in next year, and expect to be better next year. So, it is fine to be optimistic about our future, but these teams are optimistic about their future as well. The difference is they are not 2-10 in the ACC right now.
We are now 8-40 in the ACC since firing Seth.
We are now 8-40 in the ACC since firing Seth.
LOL. Good one. Just like Newsome and O'Cain are the reason we have gone 8-5 and 7-6 the last 2 seasons in football, right? There are very good freshman and sophomores starting all over the country, yet, we are in year 3 post Seth, and you still blame him? Just so I will know, how long do you plan on blaming Seth for our struggles?
Weaver is responsible for the 8-40, or for those who think he was too sick to be responsible for his bad decisions, it's okay with blame it on his boss who allowed him to keep on being AD when he was too sick to do the job correctly. That said, Seth had already hit his ceiling too and was on a decline. Whit made the right hire to get the program back on its feet again the fastest way it can be done. Kank is basing too much on one bad game. By the same respect he could have cited several very competitive games we have played, when we really don't have any business being competitive in any ACC game we play this year.
I disagree big time with saying Seth hit his ceiling and was on a decline. You cannot use one 4-12 year in the ACC and assume that means the program is on a decline. We had just won 25 and 22 games the previous years, and were very snakebit Seth's last year. It happens to teams every year. Some years you win more close games than you lose, sometimes you split them, and sometimes you lose way more than you win. If you look into that season more, you will see we lost by 1 and 4 to a 25 win, NCAA tourney team FSU, by 4 and 5 (in OT) to a 27 win tourney team Duke, and by 2 to 22 win, tourney team UVA (we also beat them). We also lost 4 other ACC games by 2,2,3, and 4 points. Factor in some good players from this team returning combined with Montrezl Harrell and we were far from a decline.
I understand we have been competitive in many games this year. I understand Buzz does not have a lot of talent this year. My frustration is not over one game, it is not about losing to WVU by 31, Notre Dame by 25, or UNC and Louisville by 15, and my frustration is definitely not with Buzz. My frustration comes from the fact we have now made 2 coaching changes and are in year 3 since firing Seth and are sitting at 2-10 in the ACC. We are hoping for what in 2 years? To be on the tourney bubble and have relevant games late in the season?
We had that. Say what you want about Seth, but we were relevant, we sold out the Cassell, and at least had a chance to go to the dance more often than not. And, we didn't have to pay 2.3 - 2.9 million dollars for it, but decided that was not good enough here.
So, this is not a Seth vs. Buzz thing with me. I like Buzz, and think he is a very good coach. But, we had a very good coach in Seth, and never should have fired him. I said that 3 years ago, and after ACC seasons of 4-14, 2-16, and now 2-10, I am not sure how anyone could say I was wrong for thinking that.
Finney-Smith was gone, but not Harrell. After Seth got fired, Harrell said he wanted to look around at some more schools, which is understandable when a new coach that did not recruit you is now the coach. Yet, JJ had the attitude of if you don't want to be here, move on, and made little effort to keep him.
Not sure why you would disagree big time. IMO he was a good defensive coach and decent recruiter, but limited by his inability to run an effective offense. He peaked in '07 when he went to his only NCAA tournament at Tech behind two senior guards, with a number 5 seed, and exited in the round of 32. Fortunately his '07 team had enough players that could create their own offense enough to reach the NCAA tournament, but his teams were never consistent enough to make it back to the NCAA after the '07 season. The talent level was falling a little each season, with less and less go to players each year, until he fell all the way to last place. He was losing control over his last several years. The program was rife with player and recruit defections, recruits that didn't pan out, and the steady, year over year trickle of assistant coach defections, while Weaver snoozed, until Weaver suddenly woke up to take notice that the last assistant coach was on his way out of town. If that wasn't a declining program I don't know what else to call it. It fell from 4th to last and wasn't sustaining enough talent to get it out of the bottom tier of the conference from that point forward IMO. And it doesn't do much good to brag about 25 or 22 wins if the losses are bad enough to still keep you out of the NCAA tournament.
The program would have been better off if Weaver had taken action to fire Seth with an appropriate timing and strategy for coach replacement instead of the way he completely botched the process. So, hate that we had to be 8-40 in order to get rid of Greenberg but it really didn't have to be as painful as Weaver made it. With Buzz we've got a future that should have a much higher ceiling than Seth's one NCAA appearance in nine seasons.
Maybe I should have only said I disagree with you, and left out the "big time". I'll give you that. I just don't think Seth had hit his ceiling. Yes, he had 1 NCAA bid in 9 years, but, we all know at least 2 of the NIT seasons were NCAA worthy, and something awfully strange kept them out. I doubt all the Seth haters now were saying we didn't deserve bids then because I don't remember one VT fan anywhere saying we did not get snubbed.
I think we had some good momentum going in 2011 when we beat #1 Duke. There was talent on that team, definitely enough for me to question your "talent level was falling each season" comment. Or, do you think that Delaney, Hudson, Allen, and Green were not that good? How they kept us out of the tourney in 2011, I will never understand. Sure, we were snakebit in 2012, but we were still getting some of our best recruits with Finney-Smith the previous season and Harrell.
Had we gotten the tourney bids we deserved, we would be talking about firing a coach who went to the NCAA in 07, NIT in 08 and 09, NCAA in 10 and 11, and then went 4-12 in the ACC in 2012. Even without the other tourney bids, we fired a coach who, in his last 6 seasons here, finished 3rd in the ACC twice and 4th twice.
So, we were still relevant and we were getting big time recruits. Yes, Finney-Smith was gone regardless, but the key was we were still getting recruits, and I felt we could have had a few of our best seasons in quite awhile had we stuck with Seth. Some people think Green would have left had Seth stayed, and there is not one ounce of truth to that one. Why would a senior leader transfer and sit out a year, and delay his NBA money? Green and Harrell alone would have made us very competitive in 2012-2013. Instead, we are 8-40 in the ACC since firing Seth.
Time will tell what we do with Buzz. Worst case is we never make the tourney. Best case is probably that we get 2 NCAA bubble bids his first 5 seasons. But, even if we get that, where will that leave us? Are 2 disastrous JJ seasons followed by maybe 2 bubble tourney bids in the next 5 seasons really worth making the change 3 years ago? We will never know, but I think we would have done a lot better than that had we never fired Seth.
I think we had some good momentum going in 2011 when we beat #1 Duke. There was talent on that team, definitely enough for me to question your "talent level was falling each season" comment. Or, do you think that Delaney, Hudson, Allen, and Green were not that good? How they kept us out of the tourney in 2011, I will never understand. Sure, we were snakebit in 2012, but we were still getting some of our best recruits with Finney-Smith the previous season and Harrell.
Had we gotten the tourney bids we deserved, we would be talking about firing a coach who went to the NCAA in 07, NIT in 08 and 09, NCAA in 10 and 11, and then went 4-12 in the ACC in 2012. Even without the other tourney bids, we fired a coach who, in his last 6 seasons here, finished 3rd in the ACC twice and 4th twice.
So, we were still relevant and we were getting big time recruits. Yes, Finney-Smith was gone regardless, but the key was we were still getting recruits, and I felt we could have had a few of our best seasons in quite awhile had we stuck with Seth. Some people think Green would have left had Seth stayed, and there is not one ounce of truth to that one. Why would a senior leader transfer and sit out a year, and delay his NBA money? Green and Harrell alone would have made us very competitive in 2012-2013. Instead, we are 8-40 in the ACC since firing Seth.
Time will tell what we do with Buzz. Worst case is we never make the tourney. Best case is probably that we get 2 NCAA bubble bids his first 5 seasons. But, even if we get that, where will that leave us? Are 2 disastrous JJ seasons followed by maybe 2 bubble tourney bids in the next 5 seasons really worth making the change 3 years ago? We will never know, but I think we would have done a lot better than that had we never fired Seth.
IIRC one of those seasons we were on the bubble with VCU and when VCU got selected and we didn't, a bunch of our fans were saying the same thing about us deserving the bid - instead of VCU. Then we got bounced early from the NIT while VCU played their way into the Final 4, making it look like the selection committee knew more than our fans did. None of the seasons we were left out were quite the slam dunk you think they were, a legitimate argument can be made for every time we were left out. But the reason we were in that position to be left out was Seth not closing out when he had the chance, not some contrived selection committee conspiracy. Seth lost some games, a few too many, that gave legitimacy to the arguments to leave us out, when considered along with all the other factors. Seth could have closed it out after beating Duke instead of getting beat by 20 by BC at home. Seth didn't close out when he was in control of his destiny and then whined about the selection committee. The disaster that followed his firing was more about our AD not planning for Seth's replacement than about losing Seth. If Weaver had planned it properly and acted in a competent way, he could have hired a qualified coach at the right time and had a much better chance to achieve a softer landing.
Just because VCU made the final 4 does not mean they had a better regular season than us, and deserved a bid over us. I agree we could have closed out some late games that would have removed any doubt about our tourney chances, but the teams that made it instead of us also had losses down the stretch, some real bad, without having the same amount of quality wins.
For example, the very VCU team you are talking about lost 4 of their last 5 regular season games, including their final 2 to Drexel and JMU. They only went 12-6 in an average CAA, including losses to 12-19 Ga. State and 11-20 Northeastern, had very few good wins, and went 23-11 overall. They got hot at the right time, but had no business being in the tourney. Even Shaka admitted he didn't even bother getting his team together for the selection show, and instead was planning on the NIT.
Also, there was UAB, who went 22-8, didn't beat anyone great, and lost to 18-16 ECU in the 1st round of their conference tourney.
And, the worst of all was 19-14 USC. 14 losses!!! And, they also lost to NIT bound WSU late in the season that should have sealed their fate.
For example, the very VCU team you are talking about lost 4 of their last 5 regular season games, including their final 2 to Drexel and JMU. They only went 12-6 in an average CAA, including losses to 12-19 Ga. State and 11-20 Northeastern, had very few good wins, and went 23-11 overall. They got hot at the right time, but had no business being in the tourney. Even Shaka admitted he didn't even bother getting his team together for the selection show, and instead was planning on the NIT.
Also, there was UAB, who went 22-8, didn't beat anyone great, and lost to 18-16 ECU in the 1st round of their conference tourney.
And, the worst of all was 19-14 USC. 14 losses!!! And, they also lost to NIT bound WSU late in the season that should have sealed their fate.
But unfortunately for Seth, the committee didn't agree with you. So we can debate all the ifs and buts, at the end of the day Seth was what his record was - one in nine and on decline! I'm glad ESPN got him and we got Buzz and can now look forward to getting better again.
This is an absolute joke and you are trash. You relentlessly ridiculed people for saying VT got snubbed under Greenberg years back and "supported" it with usual statistic vomit, and now you're doing an about-face for the sake of petty dichotomy. You have absolutely zero intellectual honesty or integrity. It's a shame these boards don't have archives because I would gladly go back and pull out our back-and-forths.
Yes, we could debate it. Like pckank debated assiduously in the opposite direction 3-4 years ago. What a joke. This tool bag is so bent against any potential success for VT that he's willing to reverse his position altogether now post hoc to make his Greenberg hard-on look more reasonable. What a tool bag.
Greenberg was a mediocre coach who had hit his ceiling after 3 years. It's not a committee conspiracy that kept him out of the tournaments: it was his team's tendencies toward erratic play and his atrocious half-court offenses. He had 3 NCAA appearances in over 20 years of coaching. Hard to chalk that up to extenuating circumstances when coaches from worse programs and conferences are able to manage better than that.
The Clemson loss would be a big deal if this were happening every game, but it's not. We've been a lot more competitive as of late, and against some very good competition, and a lot of that was accomplished without Bibb who contributes 13 ppg and with JVZ getting the boot. Not to mention we have, what, 7 true scholarship players and one legitimate low-post guy?
8-40 since firing Seth, and 12-52 if you include his last season which you should. We were on a clear downward trajectory. Why you're still kissing the feet of a coach who managed 3 NCAA appearances in over 20 years of coaching and managed to get zero tournament appearances with the highest rated VT recruiting class is beyond me.
Buzz has had more success as a head coach in a few short years than Greenberg had in over two decades. He's also a much better x's and o's guy, more affable, better at marketing himself and his program, doesn't let kids smoke pot and do whatever the hell they want to under his watch, and I believe you will find he's a better overall recruiter and evaluator of talent as well. At some point you are going to have to jump off the Greenberg wagon.
Man, I just want to vomit now that they have Greenberg in this behind-the-bench thing on espn. I think Greenberg got more air time than the commercials in the game I watched yesterday. Not sure why espn finds him to be such a great analyst but I don't.
I thought the whole Seth dismissal was because Weaver thought Shaka was a real candidate and when that didnt happen, he was left scrambling for a replacement and when that didnt happen he settled on JJ ?
All I remember was it was an odd time to be firing a coach.
All I remember was it was an odd time to be firing a coach.
I don't know what Weaver was thinking regarding Shaka. There is no doubt that something very unusual was going on within VT athletics at the time. As someone who has worked within large organizations for many years, there was a serious, disruptive problem within VT and it certainly appeared to be Seth.
I wasn't surprised about the problem, although the outcome indicated it was very, very serious. The prior year, if you paid attention to the team it was apparent there was no joy for the game amongst the players. I remember discussing this with other VT fans, and they agreed, something was wrong and it was serious. Apparently, it was Seth, he didn't play well with others, is my guess.
I think that's all true and even pretty much evident from the exodus of assistant coaches we had been having. My opinion though, since the problem was apparently an ongoing one, was that Weaver would have had plenty of opportunity to deal with the problem without having to do it with such poor timing - had he been paying attention to the problem as it was building. But I don't think he was paying attention and didn't wake up from his slumber until the last assistant was on his way out the door - which coincides with a month after the end of the season - which also happened to coincide with Seth telling Weaver to pound sand on attending one of Weaver's staff workshops, and Weaver just emotionally reacted to both situations in the kneejerk fashion that he did. To me it looks like Weaver was just totally incompetent on every front of the situation, and then tried to bring the fire hose after the house had already burned down. Then he made it worse by handling the firing process with a total lack of class and made himself look like a total clown to any decent coach candidate. Hence, he ended up getting on his knees to beg James Johnson to come back from Clemson to save Weaver's program from the attrition he set it up for, which of course didn't work when DFS and Harrell both bailed. That's just my opinion of course, but its at least an opinion formed from a few known facts.
It is clear to me that you are simply risk-averse to change. The basketball program under Seth was going nowhere; it had hit its ceiling, which was a program destined to be one of the 1st four out of the NCAA tournament on an annual basis. Stop talking about the shoulda-coulda-woulda crap. In the end, VT was NOT in the NCAA tournament.
The fact that he couldn't or chose not to recruit Dell Curry's kids to VT was a bad sign all by itself and was inexcusable.
Continuing to do the same thing over and over, but continually expecting a different result is insanity. Why do you continue to endorse insanity?
The future with Buzz has a much higher ceiling than Seth would have ever had.
